Navigating Midlife and Caregiving with Penny Wincer

Penny & Suzy: So hello, I'm really

excited to introduce today's guest.

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We have Penny Wincer along today.

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Penny is a Melbourne born, London dwelling

author and non fiction writing coach.

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And after 15 years as a freelance

interiorist photographer, she

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began writing about her life as

a single parent and unpaid carer.

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And then going on to publish, tender,

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She's a certified writing coach as well.

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So as well as writing her own book,

she helps other people to write theirs,

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particularly helping writers put standout

nonfiction book proposals together.

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And she also hosts a podcast

called Not Too Busy to Write.

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And there are so many things I'm excited

to talk to you about today, Penny.

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So thank you very much for

coming along to the Happy Middle.

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It's a pleasure to be here.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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Yeah, you're so welcome.

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You're so welcome.

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Happy Middle is all about, navigating

this in betweeny part of life in 50s

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when we're, in, in between lots of things

and working out like this messy middle.

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And I'm, so I'm just, I would love to know

what your own experience of this middle

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part is, how are you finding it so far?

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video: Oh,

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Penny & Suzy: it's funny, like I think,

so many times I've heard people talk

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about their life in terms of phases,

often you hear people say, Oh, my twenties

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were chaotic and I didn't know myself.

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And then my thirties felt much more

steady and I was settled down and

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I was really coming into myself.

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And actually I had this slightly different

flipped experience where I was a.

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I was a young carer in my teens.

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It was quite full on.

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And then my mum died in my early 20s.

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And then, so obviously it started,

my 20s started a little bit rough.

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But then actually after that, my 20s felt

really free and adventurous and exciting.

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I travelled a lot.

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I was no longer a carer,

although I miss my mum very much.

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I was in this whole new phase.

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And then in my thirties, I, became

a mother and had two children,

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but my eldest is disabled.

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And I was suddenly a carer again

in quite different circumstances.

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And actually my thirties ended up being

a really difficult time because of that.

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My marriage ended, not because of

that, but my marriage ended and I

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was a carer and a single parent.

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And I live very far away from all of

my family and obviously becoming a

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mother without my own mother as well.

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So my thirties were

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I guess, probably,

interesting, challenging time.

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And I was quite happy to see

the back of them in a way.

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And so my 40s have felt, I

guess I've more free again,

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more kind of creatively free.

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I'm in a new relationship again.

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And it's really nice to be in

another phase of my life with that.

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Things are still very chaotic in

many ways, having a disabled child.

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And it's con and there are

constantly new things because of

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that, because he obviously, his

challenges change as he grows.

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So I'm not going to downplay that, but

at the same time, I am very accustomed

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to it now more so than I usEd to be.

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Things going in the middle.

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They're going, they're really interesting

and they're certainly not dull.

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Let's say.

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Okay.

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So interesting and not dull.

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And also it sounds some new beginnings

happening for you as well and new.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And congratulations for your, your

new love and, A new relationship.

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Exciting.

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Yeah, really exciting.

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And so different to start a relationship

in, we were like 40, I think when

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we met and he's the same age as me.

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And, and it's so different

to start a relationship at 40.

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then at 20 or 25 or even like 30.

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We had lived a lot when we got

together, we had done a lot of

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living and we'd been through a

lot, each of us different things.

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So it is a really interesting

time to be in a new

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relationship, really interesting.

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And then of course, on top of all

of that, I completely changed my

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career as well around the same time.

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Because I spent my twenties and thirties

as a photographer and now in my forties

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as a writer and a writing coach.

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So actually.

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My 40s have felt very different, but

yeah, a lot of changes and some of

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those have been painful, but they've

all been good, even the one, even when

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some of it has been a bit painful.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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I feel like changes is a really big

theme that comes up when we talk

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about midlife, changes that just

happen to us and thrown at us and then

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the stuff that we initiate as well.

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And sometimes it's.

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It's hard to figure out which is which,

whether we've actually initiated a change

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or whether it's just being forced upon us.

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And I think it's often a

combination of the two.

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Certainly my career changes have been

that it was, I definitely, I've always

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written, and When I was in, when I did

my undergraduate, I, my, I did a double

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major in creative writing and film.

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That was, could have gone down that

road immediately, but I always imagined

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it was something I would come back to.

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But, I went into photography

and actually I loved it.

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It was great.

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I loved being a photographer.

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I got to the point just though,

at a certain point with my

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son, it was just untenable.

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I managed, but I think five or six

years as a single parent shooting

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and trying to support my son's need.

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And obviously I have

another child as well.

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With no family around.

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video: No

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Penny & Suzy: real backup.

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It was hugely difficult, but it

just got to the point when my

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son's needs got to a certain point.

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And as disabled kids get older and

services and things change and get

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more challenging, to get hold of, it

became too difficult to keep that going.

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So it was slightly forced

on me, I would say.

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Certainly the speed at which I had to

make those changes was forced on me.

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But at the same time, from a

creative point of view, I have

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no regrets about that change.

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It's just been, it's very, it is difficult

financially to switch careers in your

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40s, when you're supporting a family.

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But.

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So I've got no regrets, but it has, it's

been a painful process, I would say.

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Yeah, and are you finding that,

your new career fits a lot better

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around your family and your friends?

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Yeah, I mean that, it just

had to, I had to do it.

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It was impossible to do what I used to do.

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It just got to the point where

it was physically impossiblE.

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the older my son gets, the more sort

of specialized support he needs.

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It's harder and harder to come by,

it's more expensive, but even aside

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from money, it's just so difficult to

find people to care for disabled young

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people, compared to, small child.

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And he, his needs have changed.

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He needs so much routine and regularity

and he needs me to be, I basically need to

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be the flexible one because he can't be.

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And it just, as much as, I was

always freelance, a freelance

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photography career is not flexible.

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When a client books me, I'm booked.

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I have to be there at 9am.

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Otherwise they've, there's

no one to replace me.

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If a photographer can't turn

up, then the whole team.

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is, shut down.

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I'm costing a client

thousands and thousands.

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I can't just call him sick

because something's gone wrong.

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And he can't be looked after by just

anyone and the older he gets, the

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more kind of things go wrong really.

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That's what it is.

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And so I needed something

to be really flexible.

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And part of what it was is when I wrote

my first book, I was still shooting.

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time off shooting as I could to

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write it because I had to write

it reasonably quickly once it got.

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once it got commissioned.

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And I remember at the time, as well

as really enjoying the work itself,

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I was just like, Oh my God, this

is so much better for our life.

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It's so much better that I'm here

mostly working from home and available.

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I just, I'd realized at that point that

we had reached that phase where I just

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needed to be on hand, and flexible.

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And that's what started it.

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But then, the pandemic and various

other things about my son getting older

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just made it happen very urgently.

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I'm hearing resonances and I know

it's very different, but with.

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a need for flexible working and, ways

round managing like all the different

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pieces of our lives that don't really

fit into that kind of nine to five

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model, or even the, the freelance

model where you're, you have to be

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in a certain place at a certain time.

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It feels many of us need to find like

ingenious ways to be in the world and

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earn money and forge paths forward that

also help us to take care of our caring

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responsibilities, whatever they look like.

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Yeah, I'm in a really tiny minority.

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There's only 4 percent of people.

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Mothers of disabled

children work full time.

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It's tiny.

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And I think the percentage of mothers

of non disabled kids is something like

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39 something like that work full time.

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So I'm in a tiny minority.

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And, the only way I can do

it is by doing it flexibly.

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And, It's, I know so many people that

have had to give up work and some people

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completely give up work because what

they did before they had children,

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you can't do flexibly or part time.

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And it's something that I feel very

strongly about work is so important to me.

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I feel like constantly, this is,

I think one of the things that's

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been a surprise as a parent, a

bit of a shock really, is that.

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I have to absolutely fight

tooth and nail to keep working.

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It, there's been so many times where

I just think, should I just give up,

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should I just give up and, allow us

to fall into poverty, quite frankly,

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and just get by, but I can't do it.

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I can't let that happen.

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And so I have to keep fighting.

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And it sounds mad, this is what happens

to families with disabled family members.

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It's in fact, having a disabled

family member is the number one

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predictor of poverty in the UK.

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Because either you need.

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the other family members need to

not work to support them because

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there isn't support in place.

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Or because, one of the adults

in the household is disabled and

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can't work for whatever reason.

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So it's, it's a fight to keep going, but

I was determined that I wasn't going to

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have my work removed from me, which is

why I had to make all the changes I made.

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yeah.

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And caring feels like such an unsupported.

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role in our culture, like there

just doesn't feel like there's.

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a lot of support at all

for, there is almost none.

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Yeah.

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It was almost done.

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And in fact, I would say

it's the other way around.

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It's the carers in this country that

are keeping this country afloat.

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A hundred percent, the NHS would

collapse and social services

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would collapse tomorrow.

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If all the unpaid carers stopped propping

up all of those services, the country

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couldn't function without unpaid carers.

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It would be completely, It'd be

complete chaos in the same way that,

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you know, all of the men who have

gotten in their careers, if none of

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them had wives behind them, they would

either be completely single and alone,

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or they would not be where they are.

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And the country is run on unpaid work.

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And than us in a way, you almost

need to flip it around, rather than

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saying there isn't much support for

carers, it's actually, it's carey

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carers who are doing all the support.

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Yeah.

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And.

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That's where I think we've got a big

problem with looking at it that way

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around because, anything that social

services and the NHS, and whatever

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other services, education does to

support me now with my son is making an

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investment in me being able to continue

to care for him in an ongoing way.

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It will cost them a fortune

if I can't do it anymore.

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But it happens, carers

get extremely burnt out.

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They can't do it anymore because

what's expected of one person

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to manage is mostly impossible.

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A lot of the time what's being asked.

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It's a shame.

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It's so short term and

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If we did actually support the carers

in this country, we would, it would

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be so much better long term in terms

of being able to have, be better for

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disabled people, it would be better

for carers, it would be better for the

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economy, be better for so many reasons.

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Just in the same way that investing in,

in, in child care and early learning

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and education is really beneficial

for the country in the long term.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And supporting better supporting

mothers too and parents, yeah.

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It's the same way.

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you're reminding me of that, a piece in

your book tender where you talk about this

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pyramid of care with when cared for at the

top and then carers and then underneath

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there needs to be the support there.

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Which I guess is all the services

that you're talking about, but

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it's also society at large.

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And, Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It is society at large.

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And I think, I think This is where

I always get a little bit, it can

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be a bit tricky about talking about

things like, individual care and

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individual self care, because, that's

only touching around the edges.

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And of course, there are things

that I can do to help support

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myself that allow me to continue,

caring for my son and my family.

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being, healthy and happy myself.

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There are lots of small

things I can do, of course.

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But I think there's such a bigger piece

of the puzzle is, having a society that

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cares, have a society that supports all

of its, members, including, disabled

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people, including carers, including

parents, and everybody really.

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And that's got to underpin everything.

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Without that, What does it matter if

I manage to meditate 10 minutes a day

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if I don't have any support for my son

and I can't work and I'm in poverty?

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It's, it's, and this is obviously,

so much bigger than a conversation

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about caring for disabled children.

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It's everything, this idea of, without

this kind of, an underpinning for

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everybody, in the same way that,

if you're raising children and you

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can't even give them a safe home and

put food on the table, like talking

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about managing your own stress on an

individual level, is meaningless if you

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can't get those basic things in place.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I'm wondering about like the

conversation about caring as well,

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feels like in midlife, we can

often be like in the middle of

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lots of different caring roles.

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Like we might have kids that

we're caring for or partners.

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And then, our relatives

getting older as well.

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And that's in the forefront of my minD.

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video: it

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Penny & Suzy: doesn't feel like we

speak about pairing and what that

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what it's going to look like until

it's actually here, until it hits, and

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it's like you know this is the role

like it doesn't seem to be, we don't

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seem to have those conversations.

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I think it's a few different things.

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One of the things that can be really

tricky, and I think particularly, which

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I'm sure loads of people listening will

resonate with this as parents get older.

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There can be a bit of a creep,

and certainly people have a

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certain idea about what caring

means and what it doesn't mean.

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And a lot of people, when they hear

the word carer, they think of someone

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doing quite intense, meeting quite

intense physical needs, And, but actually

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caring is so much bigger than that.

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A lot of people care by distance.

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They're making the doctor's appointments.

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They're checking in, they're

double checking that their parents

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have taken their medication.

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Do they need someone to

accompany them to the hospital?

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Actually, they need to have somebody

come and change all their light bulbs.

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They need to have actually somebody

nice to start coming and doing

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their shopping for them and bring

them every weekend, so caring can

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start in, in, in small remote ways.

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And often people don't recognize

that's what they're doing.

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Of course, at first, because

it's just a slow creep of building

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up a responsibilities of things

that you're just taking over.

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And of course it's natural.

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It's what we do when.

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People we love need support from us.

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We give it to them.

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And so we can be afraid to

label it as anything of, Oh,

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I'm just being a daughter.

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I'm just being a son.

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I'm just being a sister.

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I'm just being a partner.

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I'm just, and where I think

it's really important that we

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video: Recognize

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Penny & Suzy: and acknowledge what

we're doing is providing care and

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the kind of quick definition for

that, that Carers UK give is that if

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you're providing someone with support

that they could not otherwise manage

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without, then you are providing care.

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a carer.

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So on a regular basis.

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Whether that's because you are now

attending all hospital appointments

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and doing the shopping and changing all

the light bulbs, and doing things like

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making sure you clean the bath at your

mom's house, because you don't want

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them doing it because you're worried

that they'll slip over, that you're

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now a carer by doing those things.

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And, and the reason it can be

really important to acknowledge

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that's what you're doing is.

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It's because when things get difficult,

if we can know that actually, you know

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what, it's, I'm in a new role now,

this is going to be challenging this

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it's normal for this to be challenging.

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So I think, first of all, that

acknowledgement is really important.

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I'm not.

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just being an ungrateful daughter or a

difficult, I'm not just being, I'm not

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just complaining about being a daughter.

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I'm actually doing something that's

actually becoming really quite

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challenging and really difficult.

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And so I, being able to identify

as a care can really help mentally

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with that of understanding where we

are taking on a new role now and our

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relationship with that loved one might

actually be changing as a result.

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And that's okay.

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And then the other thing is courses.

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is that sometimes when we deny what we're

doing, then we can't ask for help and we

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can't reach out for help from anyone else.

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And so I think being able to

acknowledge what it is that we're

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actually doing is really important.

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I know with parent carers,

this can be a big hurdle.

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Acknowledging that you're a parent carer,

first of all, acknowledging that you

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have a disabled child, and it can take a

long time for people to acknowledge that.

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Partly that's because we have such a

kind of, we live in a society that's

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so ableist and we think of disability as

the worst thing that can happen to you.

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And so to acknowledge that you have

a disabled child or perhaps now your

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parent is disabled or your partner is

now disabled, that can be such a mental

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hurdle for a lot of people because when

we think about that, we just think about

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all of the negative messaging we've

had around disability our entire lives.

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And we might not even be

consciously aware of it.

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We just, it's the water we swim in, so

we're not even necessarily aware of it.

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So being able to acknowledge that you're a

carer first, you have to acknowledge that

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the person you're giving support to needs

that support and cannot manage without it.

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And that can be quite a big

emotional step to do that.

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I know with parents.

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Sometimes that can be difficult

because they won't not acknowledge

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that's what's going on.

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And so that adds another

layer of challenges.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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As we get into this space where,

we're going to be taking on more

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of those roles and taking on more

caring and, okay, starting to accept.

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that this is the work that we're doing,

what are the ways that we can do this in

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a kind of, as gentle and compassionate.

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way to ourselves and to, the people

that we're caring for is possible.

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I'm thinking of, when I became a

mother and how I went so hard on,

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finding out all the information and

reading all the books and trying to

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make sure I did everything perfectly.

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video: And

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Penny & Suzy: it completely took me the

other way, like my experience of early

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motherhood was just so stressful and so

anxiety laden because I've been trying

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so hard to do everything really well.

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I'm wondering if there's

similarities in caring.

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So many similarities.

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And that there are some slight

differences and nuances as well.

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I know that for parent carers.

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it's very much that you've

talked about, but to the extreme.

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And, but when it comes to other family

members who didn't previously need

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that kind of support from us, I

think the acknowledgement first, is

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really helpful to acknowledge that

you're entering a kind of new phase

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of your relationship with them.

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And then really that acknowledgement,

what can be really helpful for is to

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be able to, offer yourself compassion

because, any kind of drastic change in a

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relationship is going to be challenging.

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And if I think probably the number one

thing I would recommend to people is to

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learn a bit more about self compassion and

about how that can support you because.

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like in motherhood, not, no amount

of beating yourself up and studying

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is going to make it easier.

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And it's not going to make

you a better mother either.

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And so I think, the first

thing that we can all do.

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When we're doing something really

challenging and, caring for a family

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member can be extremely challenging.

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To first of all

acknowledge that it's hard,

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And that potentially very hard

and possibly one of the hardest

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things that you have done.

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I think.

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That's a really good place to start.

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And then with that acknowledgement, also

thinking about it, maybe stepping outside

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of yourself a little bit for a second

and think about, okay, if this was my

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best friend going through this, if this

was my best friend who was having to, to

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deal with their parents mood changes, was

having to, rush from kids things to, to

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hospital appointments for parents, to, to

constantly worrying, to never being able

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to turn the phone off in case anything

goes wrong and to be constantly on call.

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If that was my best friend going through

that, I would know that's very difficult

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and I would be really kind to them.

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So I think that's where the

acknowledgement is so important that

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we're in a new phase and we're going

through something really challenging.

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It is so hard to underestimate

how powerful that is.

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And I think in the same way that, that

when we talk about motherhood openly and

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when we know that we're not the only ones

that find motherhood difficult, when we're

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not the only ones who are awake at three

in the morning thinking, what have I done?

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video: I

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Penny & Suzy: don't know how

to look after this creature.

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When we know we're not alone in

this, when we know that this is a

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normal experience of, of motherhood.

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of change, then it just takes

so much of the stress away.

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And I'm, I really loved this piece in

tender where you said, about caring as

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letting go of control and going from how

do I fix this, which I think is definitely

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my default thing when I'm feeling any

kind of anxiety to how can I respond to

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this or how can I make the best of this?

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I thought that was

really beautiful reframe.

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Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

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And it's not that I don't

try and control things.

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I really do still try and control things.

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Oh, yeah.

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Would we be here then if we didn't?

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But yeah, the lack of control I think is

one of the hardest things about caring.

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It's probably one of the hardest

things about aging in general, right?

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Because so we just, the more life

experience we have, the more we

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understand deeper into our bones, how

little control you have over anything.

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And I think caring is a part of that.

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And I, so I think, just

acknowledging where we are right now.

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It sounds so flippant, but it

really can be super helpful of,

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this is where we are right now.

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How do we live our best lives

within what we've got right now?

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I remember years ago having this,

my son was, my son is now 14.

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Maybe when he was about eight

or so, having this moment of

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frustration that I was still.

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Completely supervising his baths and

there was still water all over the

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bathroom and there was, shouting both

in happiness and also distress, the

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full works, like having a small child.

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And I remember thinking, how

am I going to do this forever?

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If he needs me to, how am

I going to do this forever?

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And my friends with eight year

olds aren't doing this anymore.

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How am I going to keep doing this?

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And one of the things, and this

still happens, it happens when things

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are really difficult and we're in

the middle of a meltdown and stuff,

448

I do still have those feelings of

how am I going to keep doing this?

449

They still happen.

450

And the only way I know how to deal

with them is to remind myself in that

451

moment, I don't have to do it forever.

452

I have to just do this right now.

453

I just have to do it right now and this

moment will end and it'll probably end

454

actually in 15 minutes or 20 minutes

and then everything will be okay.

455

And I don't have to do every bath

the rest of his life right now.

456

Yes.

457

I just have to do this one right now.

458

And it's not magic.

459

It doesn't mean that I don't

have really hard moments.

460

Actually, we had a weekend, a thing

over the weekend that was, we had a

461

moment that was extremely difficult.

462

My son's a lot bigger now.

463

He can sometimes be violent when he

gets upset and it's not his fault

464

and we let it go very quickly.

465

But in those moments, it's very difficult

and very distressing for both him and

466

me and for anyone who might witness it.

467

And.

468

It is hard in those moments where

things are very difficult and I

469

know that if there's any people

who are supporting parents who are

470

having a really difficult time, they

will know what I'm talking about.

471

It's hard in those moments

to not feel like you have to

472

be in this moment forever.

473

But I think all we can do in those

really difficult moments is to try.

474

to remind ourselves we're

not doing this forever.

475

We're doing this very difficult moment

now, and we might have to do it again,

476

but it isn't going to last forever.

477

And you need to do whatever

you need to do to get yourself

478

safely through that moment.

479

And self compassion is really helpful.

480

I still get very upset when things

go wrong, I do, but one thing I

481

think that has, helped for me a lot

is, one thing I've noticed about my

482

differences between now and say when

my son was younger and I was a bit more

483

overwhelmed, on a regular basis, was

that as I recover really quickly now, so

484

I still go to quite difficult places.

485

In the same way that he does, I

can get very easily sucked into a

486

difficult place with him temporarily.

487

But I'm actually now with a lot

of practice, I can I can come

488

out the other side quite quickly.

489

Actually he's helped me with that quite

a lot because actually he lets go of

490

his Meltdowns and upset really quickly.

491

Amazingly when he gets really upset,

it doesn't last hours and hours

492

necessarily, but it can last a short

time and he gets over it and gets,

493

we, we able to move on really quickly.

494

And that is really vital because then

all you have to do is get through

495

that moment and then you can just get

on your day, get on with your day.

496

And I'm wondering, around your writing,

I know that writing has become a career

497

for you and it, it's helped you to.

498

live the life that you need

to live with your family.

499

But I'm wondering as well, if

writing is also an outlet for you,

500

If creativity becomes a really

important outlet to you.

501

Does it serve that other purpose too?

502

Yes, absolutely.

503

A hundred percent.

504

And it always has.

505

I've always done creative work, both

for paid work and also just on the side.

506

I can't imagine life without it.

507

I really can't.

508

And I think when your world It

becomes smaller in, in many ways.

509

My world is a lot smaller

than it would be otherwiSe.

510

Spent, I spent my twenties living,

moving between New York and

511

London and traveling constantly.

512

And, I'm from Australia, so

I would go back and forth.

513

Quite a bit as well.

514

It was always on the road.

515

And I had, I remember when I had

kids, I was like, oh, kids can

516

have a passport, so that's fine.

517

It's not gonna, it's expensive.

518

It won't be as often, but it'll be fine.

519

And I have a son who can't travel at all.

520

Like we go to center parks.

521

And that takes all of my courage

and my energy to do that.

522

It's brilliant and wonderful,

we don't, we can't really go

523

further afield than that with him.

524

And so my world is a lot smaller.

525

And so part of the way I make my world

bigger is through stories, and through

526

writing myself, but also through

the other stories that I consume.

527

And it's a way that I can.

528

be anywhere, and be where I

need to be at the same time.

529

So yeah, it's a huge part.

530

In terms of how I look after myself,

the two main things really are work,

531

so that I have some money coming

in so I can pay into my pension.

532

Just being, just knowing I'm putting

a little bit of money into my pension

533

makes me just feel so much better.

534

And then the other thing is, yeah,

writing and creativity and also reading.

535

That's the other thing as well.

536

And I don't, I honestly don't know

where I'd be without those at all.

537

So I'm wondering, thinking about the title

of your podcast, which is not too busy

538

to write, how we can, in this middle

bit, I feel like for me, my 40s were

539

this I woke up to I want to do something.

540

I didn't really know what the something

was, but I wanted to do something

541

creative, do some more writing.

542

video: And

543

Penny & Suzy: so a lot of people

find themselves in this point.

544

It's I want to do something important

now and do something meaningful.

545

And we are at the busiest week.

546

probably have ever been.

547

Yeah.

548

So how do we fit in, that space

and that time for creativity to

549

breathe, the things that we're really

longing to bring into the world when

550

we're also like super, super busy?

551

Yeah.

552

Yes, the eternal question.

553

I think there's a few

things that, that we can do.

554

One of them I think is just get really

clear on what it is that you want.

555

Because, if we've had small children

in our 30s and now we have slightly

556

older children in our 40s, lots

of people divorcing in their 40s.

557

Having school aged

children is extremely busy.

558

There's so many pulls on our attention.

559

There's always something on, yeah.

560

There's always something Yeah.

561

So I agree.

562

Our forties probably are our

busiest times of our lives.

563

I think it becomes about.

564

being really clear on

what it is that you want.

565

And that clarity can really

make a big difference in, into

566

how you carve out your time.

567

If you are aware of what it is that

you want, then it's so much easier.

568

to say no to the things you know

you're just doing because you think

569

you should, or you want to do, you

wish you could do, but really it's not

570

as big a priority as something else.

571

One example of that is my garden.

572

I love my garden.

573

I would actually love to

have a more beautiful garden.

574

I would love to spend

more time in the gardEn.

575

but right now, writing Trump's

gardening, and also at the moment

576

exercise because I broke my ankle

at the beginning of the year.

577

And so I'm doing loads of

physio and trying to get

578

that strength back and stuff.

579

And so at the moment, things

like, going for a walk is more

580

important than, cleaning.

581

or doing the gardening

or, those sort of things.

582

So I think if we're checking in with

ourself on a fairly regular basis,

583

quarterly is a really good idea, check

in with yourself about what it is

584

that you can't do everything, because

we're very busy, but what is it that

585

you want more than everything else?

586

aside from the absolute essentials.

587

And then just knowing that can make all

the difference when you have a choice of

588

what you're going to do with your time.

589

This morning, for instance, I've

been sleeping really badly lately.

590

I'm in London.

591

The foxes are insane at the moment.

592

They're insane.

593

I'm getting woken up at five

in the morning, loads because

594

of the foxes at the moment.

595

And this morning I woke up and I realized

I was not going to go back to sleep.

596

So I actually ended up getting myself a

cup of tea and I started working on the

597

novel that I'm working on at the moment.

598

And that was not my plan to wake

up at five in the morning to work

599

on the novel because my son goes to

sleep very late and it's not very

600

sensible for me to get up at five.

601

Because I don't go to

602

So it's not something I would usually do,

but I was awake and I was a bit like, I

603

know what's a priority for me at the

moment, aside from earning money, and

604

that is, I want to get this novel written.

605

That's what I decided to do

with that time that I had.

606

But just knowing that at the moment,

that's prioritizing pretty much

607

everything else, is super, super helpful.

608

So I'd say that.

609

another thing that I recommend with

writers that I'm working with, actually,

610

is, that so many people who, I work with.

611

Working on, writing projects

that are side projects.

612

So even if they're a writer in their

day job, when they're proposing a

613

nonfiction book, it's very much on

the side until it's been commissioned.

614

It's not yet paid.

615

And so one of the things, that I

help writers with is to get those,

616

get on with those projects, when

nobody's asked for it yet, basically.

617

And so I always recommend, the first

thing I recommend is tell the people

618

you live with that you're working on it.

619

And so that they know that

you're taking it seriously.

620

So whether that's a partner or, children,

if they're a little bit older, they

621

can understand so that they know what

you're doing is really important to you.

622

You consider it work and

it's important to you.

623

Even if it's a, if it's a hobby and you're

not intentioning, you're not, you don't

624

have no intention to take it professional.

625

Make the, your other members

of the household aware that

626

this is super important to you.

627

Just that alone can make such a big

difference in how you're able, that other

628

people can help facilitate, or at least

not stop you or prevent you from doing it.

629

Sometimes we assume that the people

we live with know it's important

630

to us, but they don't necessarily.

631

And I'm not talking about

obviously very young children.

632

Four year olds couldn't care less

if something's important to you.

633

And I know those two things seem really

tiny, checking in, understanding

634

what you want and then telling other

people that you live with, but they

635

can actually be hugely powerful.

636

Yeah.

637

I feel like those two

are really big as well.

638

It's because the first one, checking with

what you really want, but a lot of us, it

639

takes a long time to actually get to that.

640

It can take a long time.

641

What is it?

642

What does that look like?

643

And then I think the second

one, like saying out loud.

644

That's making it real because

once you've told other people,

645

you're actually doing the thing.

646

Yeah, absolutely.

647

Yeah, it is difficult.

648

It is, they're not easy things,

but they're super, super powerful.

649

And I think, also just acknowledging

that if you're doing one thing, other

650

things are going to have to be let go.

651

And that's okay.

652

I do not go to everything

at my kids schools.

653

And in fact, a long time ago, I

got to grips with a lot of things.

654

I know other families always prioritize

because I'm one person and my children

655

have very different needs, have

always gone to different schools.

656

We're in very complex

circumstances with my son.

657

And so actually as a family, we've had

to do a lot of things really different.

658

And so perhaps.

659

I had to get used to that a long time ago.

660

There's a lot of things that I

know that some of my friends.

661

in partnerships, who, who are still

married and have maybe been able

662

to do a very high level of high

touch parenting, shall we say.

663

And it's hard to acknowledge that maybe

some of that needs to be let go of in

664

order to make room for other things.

665

So I think really sitting down and

working out at this stage, right

666

now, the phase you're in right

now, what is important right now.

667

And it might be that actually you're

coming to a phase where, you can say no

668

to a certain activity that one of your

kids wants to do because you can't drive

669

half an hour on a Tuesday or whatever,

because actually, That time now is for

670

you that you've allocated to do something

that you really need to do at this stage.

671

And those are difficult.

672

Nobody can answer those

questions except, you.

673

And what it looks like for you and me

is going to be completely different.

674

And that's okay.

675

It doesn't have to look

like anybody else's family.

676

This is actually one thing

that's been really interesting

677

about having a disabled child.

678

And also.

679

being divorced and also having

no family in this country.

680

I have these differences in my

family that I know, mean that

681

I've just had to do things a little

bit different to everybody else.

682

And I had to get used to that idea

very early on, that it doesn't look

683

like how it looked when I was a kid.

684

And it doesn't look like how

most of my friends families looK.

685

and, just things like, I can't take

my two kids to the same activity and

686

I haven't been able to for years.

687

And I just, when I see sometimes my

friends say, yeah, I took the two

688

kids to do blah, blah, blah, blah,

at the same time on the holidays.

689

And I'm like, Oh God, that's

mind blowing, amazing.

690

But because I had to get used to that a

long time ago, we've also got used to

691

doing other things that are different.

692

And in some ways that's been a bit

of a weird blessing to get used to

693

being a bit of an oddball family.

694

So I would say look inwards as

well, rather than outwards to

695

what everybody else is doing.

696

Because

697

video: It

698

Penny & Suzy: might look like everyone

else is doing things a certain way,

699

but actually you'd be surprised.

700

We're all yeah, I think we're all

just, yeah, we're all just winging it.

701

Yeah, absolutely.

702

Absolutely.

703

So thank you for all of that.

704

I'd like to just like end today

really just by asking you like what

705

your idea of a happy middle might

look like and how might we get there?

706

I think perhaps.

707

video: It

708

Penny & Suzy: would be easy if

someone looked at my life on the

709

surface to be like, That sounds pretty

terrible, some of the stuff that

710

we have to deal with as a famIly.

711

video: but

712

Penny & Suzy: it's not.

713

I have a really good life that has some

difficult, really difficult bits in it.

714

And I'm definitely not going to sit

here and pretend some of it is not

715

extremely difficult because it is.

716

But all around that, there's

a lot that's really beautiful.

717

And I just think If we get a bit hung up

on the idea of it all has to be amazing

718

for us to have a really good life, I

think that can be a bit problematic.

719

, and the only thing I can equate

it to is looking back on when

720

both of my children were babies.

721

And.

722

I think about that first year

and how challenging that was,

723

but I just think, God, there were

also so many incredible moments.

724

And I'm really lucky that

I remember it that way.

725

I know that not everyone

remembers that time that way.

726

But, with all of the challenges.

727

I look back and I see a photo

of them or see a photo of

728

us doing something together.

729

And I think, Oh, there

was so many good bits.

730

And I think if we can remember that

in the present, that, On one evening

731

last over the long weekend, we had

a really tough hour or two that

732

was really awful and challenging.

733

And then actually, then the

next day was totally fine and

734

had some really great bits.

735

I think if we can just remember it.

736

remember the good along

with the challenges.

737

It can just, yeah.

738

So many things in my life are

going really lovely right noW.

739

and I think we, yeah, we

can't let ourselves get sucked

740

in by the challenging bits.

741

I guess it gives, I guess all

of it together makes our life

742

very colorful, doesn't it?

743

Yeah.

744

So just being with all of it.

745

. I love that.

746

Thank you.

747

And thanks so much for coming along.

748

It's been a total joy speaking to you.

749

Pleasure.

750

Thank you so much for having me.

751

Thanks, Penny.